Κουίζ

[loukasfilm]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Cpt. Haddock
Μάγε...

Υπάρχουν αντίστοιχα κείμενα που λένε ΑΚΡΙΒΩΣ τα αντίθετα απο αυτό που παρέθεσες. Είναι θέμα του τι θελει να περάσει αυτός που το γράφει

Εγώ σου παρέθεσα ποια βιβλια της παλαιάς διαθήκης έχουν ιστορικά ψήγματα και ποια όχι. Διάβασέ τα (ψάξε βρες παλιά αγγλική μετάφραση ή γερμανικές εκδόσεις προτεσταντών στη μετάφραση των εβδομήκοντα)

Και τα ομηρικά έπη έχουν ιστορικα ψήγματα αλλά έχουν και παρα πολλα μυθεύματα.

Εκείνες τις εποχές έτσι έγραφε ο κόσμος γιατί πίστευε σε θεούς και δαίμονες, σε μάννα εξ' ουρανου κλπ κλπ


Ξέρετε ότι ήδη στην παλαιά διαθήκη (πριν την έλευση του Χριστου) αναφέρονται περιπτώσεις γυναικών που καλούσαν αγγέλους να τις "γονιμοποιήσουν" για να κάνουν παιδιά με (ημι)θεϊκές δυνάμεις;

Σας θυμίζει κάτι (που γιορτάζεται στις 25/3);


Επίσης έναν ενδιαφέροντα παραλληλισμό (πλην του γνωστου Σωκράτης-Ιησούς) είχα δει σε ένα ντοκυμαντέρ (που εξερευνούσε τις βάσεις των μύθων) και έκανε τη σύγκριση Ηρακλή - Ιησού.

Ήταν πολύ εντυπωσιακό

Ο Μάγος δυστυχώς έφυγε.
Γιατί την σύγκριση μεταξύ Όσιρι - Ώρου, με τον Χριστό, δεν την βρίσκεις ενδιαφέρουσα?

[Cpt. Haddock]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από marios8
Ποιός Κωνσταντίνος αυτός που βρήκε τον σταυρό ?

Μη λέμε τα ίδια ρε Μάριε


Και μάλιστα (αν κρίνω απο τα κομμάτια που είναι διεσπαρμένα ανα την υφηλιο) πρέπει να βρήκε ένα σταυρό ΝΑ με το συμπάθειο...

Τι διάολο τον Γκρίσινο σταυρώσανε

:rotflmao:

[Cpt. Haddock]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από loukasfilm
Γιατί την σύγκριση μεταξύ Όσιρι - Ώρου, με τον Χριστό, δεν την βρίσκεις ενδιαφέρουσα?

More info needed

[Cpt. Haddock]

Πάντως έχει πλάκα..

ο Gandalf που υπερασπίζεται το χριστιανισμό

έχει διαλέξει ενα ΤΕΛΕΙΩΣ παγανιστικο nickname

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

γεια σου μάγε

[dukeandthecity]

Ενα ποστ θρησκευτικό που δεν εχει καταληξει σε διαμάχη μετα απο 9 σελιδες αλλα παραμένει μεσα σε κοσμια πλαίσια

τα συγχαρίκια μου στους γραφοντες

[loukasfilm]

Για να μεταφέρουμε πάντως και κάποιες πληροφορίες, η πρώτη θρησκεία που υποστήριξε την τριαδικότητα του θεού, (νεκρή εδώ και πολλούς αιώνες), είναι ο Ζωροαστρισμός.

Αν αναλύσεις τον Χριστιανισμό βήμα προς βήμα, θα δεις πολλές αντιστοιχίες με παλαιότερες θρησκείς από αυτόν.

[Nostra]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από loukasfilm
Αν αναλύσεις τον Χριστιανισμό βήμα προς βήμα, θα δεις πολλές αντιστοιχίες με παλαιότερες θρησκείς από αυτόν.

λογικό δεν είναι?


αφού ξεπατίκωσε πολλές από τις τότε νυν και τέως θρησκείες/λατρείες κλπ. για να φτιαχτεί μια καθολική συμπαιγνία ώστε να τους μαντρώσουν όλους... είτε με το καλό στην αρχή είτε με το κακό στη συνέχεια...

[Cpt. Haddock]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από loukasfilm
Αν αναλύσεις τον Χριστιανισμό βήμα προς βήμα, θα δεις πολλές αντιστοιχίες με παλαιότερες θρησκείς από αυτόν.

Προφανέστατα. Απ' όπου μπορούσε επαιρνε στοιχεία (κυρίως απο παλιότερες θρησκείες) για να επικρατήσει.

Ακόμα και η ημερομηνία των χριστουγέννων, πάνω σε παγανιστική εορτή μπήκε για να την υποσκελίσει

[loukasfilm]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Nostra
λογικό δεν είναι?


αφού ξεπατίκωσε πολλές από τις τότε νυν και τέως θρησκείες/λατρείες κλπ. για να φτιαχτεί μια καθολική συμπαιγνία ώστε να τους μαντρώσουν όλους... είτε με το καλό στην αρχή είτε με το κακό στη συνέχεια...

Κανόνισε να πάμε στις διαμάχες.


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[loukasfilm]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Cpt. Haddock
Προφανέστατα. Απ' όπου μπορούσε επαιρνε στοιχεία (κυρίως απο παλιότερες θρησκείες) για να επικρατήσει.

Ακόμα και η ημερομηνία των χριστουγέννων, πάνω σε παγανιστική εορτή μπήκε για να την υποσκελίσει

Το καλό με τον Μάγο τον Βαγγέλη και άλλα παιδιά ξέρεις πιο είναι? Ότι σε κάνουν να ψάχνεις, έτσι αυτό που θα πεις να στηρίζεται κάπου.

[marios8]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από vangelis 64

Είμαι πεπεισμένος ότι σ' αυτή τη ζωή δεν θα βρω ποτέ.Ίσως ούτε και στην άλλη,αν υπάρχει.

Μήν είσαι σίγουρος γι αυτό

[loukasfilm]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Cpt. Haddock
Μάγε...

Επίσης έναν ενδιαφέροντα παραλληλισμό (πλην του γνωστου Σωκράτης-Ιησούς) είχα δει σε ένα ντοκυμαντέρ (που εξερευνούσε τις βάσεις των μύθων) και έκανε τη σύγκριση Ηρακλή - Ιησού.

Ήταν πολύ εντυπωσιακό

Πάντως ο πιο ενδιαφέρων παραλληλισμός μεταξύ Ιησού και Ηρακλή που έχω βρει είναι αυτός:



IF JESUS, THEN WHY NOT HERCULES?

If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then shouldn't they act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief?

To take one example, examine the evidence for the Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the "historicity" of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus.

Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. Hercules got born as a human from the union of God (Zeus) and the mortal and chaste Alcmene, his mother. Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Like Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules gives example of perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshiped him, and dedicated temples to him.

Likewise the "evidence" of Hercules closely parallels that of Jesus. We have historical people like Hesiod and Plato who mentions Hercules. Similar to the way the gospels tell a narrative story of Jesus, so do we have the epic stories of Homer who depict the life of Hercules. Aesop tells stories and quotes the words of Hercules. Just as we have a brief mention of Jesus by Joesphus in his Antiquities, Joesphus also mentions Hercules (more times than Jesus), in the very same work (see: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Just as Tacitus mentions a Christus, so does he also mention Hercules many times in his Annals. And most importantly, just as we have no artifacts, writings or eyewitnesses about Hercules, we also have nothing about Jesus. All information about Hercules and Jesus comes from stories, beliefs, and hearsay. Should we then believe in a historical Hercules, simply because ancient historians mention him and that we have stories and beliefs about him? Of course not, and the same must apply to Jesus if we wish to hold any consistency to historicity.

Some critics doubt that a historicized Jesus could develop from myth because they think there never occurred any precedence for it. We have many examples of myth from history but what about the other way around? This doubt fails in the light of the most obvious example-- the Greek mythologies where Greek and Roman writers including Diodorus, Cicero, Livy, etc., assumed that there must have existed a historical root for figures such as Hercules, Theseus, Odysseus, Minos, Dionysus, etc. These writers put their mythological heroes into an invented historical time chart. Herodotus, for example, tried to determine when Hercules lived. As Robert M. Price revealed, "The whole approach earned the name of Euhemerism, from Euhemerus who originated it." [Price, p. 250] Even today, we see many examples of seedling historicized mythologies: UFO adherents who's beliefs began as a dream of alien bodily invasion, and then expressed as actually having occurred (some of which have formed religious cults); beliefs of urban legends which started as pure fiction or hoaxes; propaganda spread by politicians which stem from fiction but believed by their constituents.

People consider Hercules and other Greek gods as myth because people no longer believe in the Greek and Roman stories. When a civilization dies, so go their gods. Christianity and its church authorities, on the other hand, still hold a powerful influence on governments, institutions, and colleges. Anyone doing research on Jesus, even skeptics, had better allude to his existence or else risk future funding and damage to their reputations or fear embarrassment against their Christian friends. Christianity depends on establishing a historical Jesus and it will defend, at all costs, even the most unreliable sources. The faithful want to believe in Jesus, and belief alone can create intellectual barriers that leak even into atheist and secular thought. We have so many Christian professors, theologians and historical "experts" around the world that tell us we should accept a historical Jesus that if repeated often enough, it tends to convince even the most ardent skeptic. The establishment of history should never reside with the "experts" words alone or simply because a scholar has a reputation as a historian. Historical review has yet to achieve the reliability of scientific investigation, (and in fact, many times ignores it). If a scholar makes a historical claim, his assertion should depend primarily with the evidence itself and not just because he or she says so. Facts do not require belief. And whereas beliefs can live comfortably without evidence at all, facts depend on evidence

[vangelis 64]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Cpt. Haddock
.

Ακόμα και η ημερομηνία των χριστουγέννων, πάνω σε παγανιστική εορτή μπήκε για να την υποσκελίσει

Σε ποιάν;

[Nostra]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από vangelis 64
Σε ποιάν;

"Το 386 ο Αγ. Ιωάννης ο Χρυσόστομος παρότρυνε την εκκλησία της Αντιόχειας να συμφωνήσει στην 25η Δεκεμβρίου ως ημέρα εορτασμού της Γέννησης, και στην Ρώμη το καλεντάρι των Φιλοκαλίων (354 μ.Χ.) περιλαμβάνει στην ημερομηνία της 25ης Δεκεμβρίου, απέναντι από την παγανιστική Natalis invicti, δηλ. "γέννηση του ακατανίκητου (ήλιου)", την φράση "VIII kaalitan nattis Christus in Bethleem Iudea". Τον καιρό του Αγ. Αυγουστίνου η ημερομηνία της Γιορτής της Γέννησης είχε καθοριστεί, πάντως ο Αυγουστίνος την παραλείπει από τον κατάλογό του με τις σημαντικές χριστιανικές επετείους (PL 33.200). Θεωρείται ότι θεμελιώδη σχέση με την επικράτηση αυτής της ημερομηνίας δεν είχε μόνο το χειρόγραφο του Ιωσήπου, αλλά και η ανταγωνίστρια του Χριστιανισμού λατρεία του ήλιου, με την γιορτή του Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, όπως ήταν ο πλήρης τίτλος της (ημέρα γέννησης του ακατανίκητου Ήλιου)."



όλο το άρθρο εδώ...

[loukasfilm]

Αρχικά δημιουργήθηκε από Cpt. Haddock
More info needed

Εδώ:


THEN WHY THE MYTH OF JESUS?

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While the possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, a more likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have arrived totally out of earlier mythologies. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts for the mythologies of the Middle East and Egypt during the first century and before that appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

If you know your ancient history, remember that just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. We know that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

The Egyptian mythical Horus, god of light and goodness has many parallels to Jesus. [Leedom, Massey] For some examples:

Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)

According to Massey, "The mythical Messiah is Horus in the Osirian Mythos; Har-Khuti in the Sut-Typhonian; Khunsu in that of Amen-Ra; Iu in the cult of Atum-Ra; and the Christ of the Gospels is an amalgam of all these characters."
Osiris, Hercules, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days. [McKinsey, Chapter 5]

The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread & water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark, the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the advent of Christianity.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." [First Apology, ch. xxi]

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In the book The Jesus Puzzle, the biblical scholar, Earl Doherty, presents not only a challenge to the existence of an historical Jesus but reveals that early pre-Gospel Christian documents show that the concept of Jesus sprang from non-historical spiritual beliefs of a Christ derived from Jewish scripture and Hellenized myths of savior gods. Nowhere do any of the New Testament epistle writers describe a human Jesus, including Paul. None of the epistles mention a Jesus from Nazareth, an earthly teacher, or as a human miracle worker. Nowhere do we find these writers quoting Jesus. Nowhere do we find them describing any details of Jesus' life on earth or his followers. Nowhere do we find the epistle writers even using the word "disciple" (they of course use the term "apostle" but the word simply means messenger, as Paul saw himself). Except for two well known interpolations, Jesus always gets presented as a spiritual being that existed before all time with God, and that knowledge of Christ came directly from God or as a revelation from the word of scripture. Doherty writes, "Christian documents outside the Gospels, even at the end of the first century and beyond, show no evidence that any tradition about an earthly life and ministry of Jesus were in circulation."

These early historical documents can prove nothing about an actual Jesus but they do show an evolution of belief derived from varied and diverse concepts of Christianity, starting from a purely spiritual form of Christ to a human figure who embodied that spirit, as portrayed in the Gospels. The New Testament stories appears as an eclectic hodgepodge of Jewish, Hellenized and pagan stories compiled by pietistic believers to appeal to an audience for their particular religious times.


Το λινκ είναι: http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm


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