Yamaha και λάδια ... lost in translation

[TRX124]

Ξεκινάω αυτό το topic θέλοντας να σας μεταφέρω τις «απορίες» μου σχετικά με μία απίστευτη ιστορία που βίωσα.
Είμαι κάτοχος ενός YAMAHA TRX850 και η ιστορία που θα δείτε παρακάτω ξεκίνησε από ένα απλό γεγονός:

Η ΜΗΧΑΝΗ ΜΟΥ ΚΑΙΕΙ (Ή/ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΝΕΙ) 1 LT ΛΑΔΙ ΓΙΑ ΚΑΘΕ 1000 KM !!!


Αποφάσισα να βρω αν αυτό είναι κάτι normal ή όχι, γι’ αυτό και ήρθα σε επαφή με αυτούς που θεωρώ αρμοδίους για την επίλυση του προβλήματός μου :


• IMPORTED BIKES : εισαγωγέας της μηχανής στην Ελλάδα, καθώς και ο εξουσιοδοτημένος μηχανικός του
• YAMAHA JAPAN (YMC): εκπρόσωπος της κατασκευάστριας εταιρείας της μηχανής
• YAMAHA EUROPE (YME): εκπρόσωπος της επίσημης αντιπροσωπείας της YMC για όλη την Ευρώπη
• YAMAHA GERMANY (YMG) : εκπρόσωπος της αντιπροσωπείας της Yamaha Γερμανίας, απ’ όπου και εισήχθη στην Ελλάδα η μηχανή μου
• YAMAHA HELLAS (ΜΟΤΟΔΥΝΑΜΙΚΗ-MOTODYNAMICS): εκπρόσωπος της αντιπροσωπείας της Yamaha για την Ελλάδα

Εγώ δεν κατάφερα να βγάλω συμπέρασμα, όμως πιστεύοντας ότι το θέμα ενδιαφέρει κι άλλο κόσμο που έχει ήδη, είτε θέλει να αγοράσει μηχανή, είτε απλώς ανήκει γενικότερα στο κόσμο της μοτοσικλέτας, παραθέτω αυτούσια οτιδήποτε έχει λεχθεί επίσημα για αυτό το θέμα, και …

ο καθένας ας κρίνει μόνος του


Τελειώνοντας, θα ήθελα να υπογραμμίσω ορισμένα στοιχεία:

• Στα έγγραφα της YMC και Μotodynamics υπάρχουν υπογραφές, ονόματα και διευθύνσεις(τα πρωτότυπα είναι στη διάθεσή μου).
• Τα έγγραφα της YMG είναι FAX από την Γερμανία που παραδόθηκαν σε εμένα από την Imported Bikes.
• Τα υπόλοιπα έγγραφα είναι ανταλλαγή email με τα ενδιαφερόμενα μέλη.


Επίσης, ολοκληρώνοντας τις σκέψεις μου, θα ήθελα να εκφράσω δημοσίως τις ευχαριστίες μου στους κ.κ. Ανδρέα Κοσκινά (service manager Μοτοδυναμικής) για την άμεση ανταπόκριση, ειλικρινή στάση και βοήθειά του στο θέμα και κ. Παναγιώτη Πραβή (αρχιμηχανικός συνεργείου Μοτοδυναμικής) για την βοήθεια του και τις τεχνικές συμβουλές του για ένα θέμα που θα μπορούσαν κάλλιστα να αδιαφορήσουν, όπως κατά την ταπεινή άποψή μου έκαναν οι υπόλοιπες πλευρές.

Κλείνοντας, θα ήθελα να σας παρακαλέσω να μου στείλετε διευθύνσεις ελληνικών και ξένων forums που θα μπορούσα απευθυνθώ (ή εάν μπορείτε να το δημοσιοποιήσετε απευθείας εσείς). Περιμένω τα σχόλια σας, ενώ για οποιαδήποτε άλλη πληροφορία το e-mail μου είναι : pg2myamaha@gmail.com


ΠΡΟΣΟΧΗ: Ακολουθούν άλλα δύο αρχεία .Jpeg , νούμερα 1 και 16c. Βάλτε τα στη σειρά με το συμπιεσμένα και κρίνετε μόνοι σας !!!

[TRX124]

Συνέχεια ...

[TRX124]

TO YAMAHA EUROPE - Department YMENV


Dear Sir/Madam,


May I offer you my congratulations on the 50-years of Yamaha’s success. I am one of the many fans of Yamaha since the 1st FZR 1000 back in ’87. The reason I ‘m sending you this letter is to ask for your help as far as a problem that has recently come up. I own a TRX 850 (FRAME NUMBER: JYA4UN00000014112 – ENGINE NUMBER: 4UN-013271). The motorbike was bought in Greece on the 25th of February 2005. It is a used motorbike that has run 27000 km. It was bought by a Greek unauthorized Yamaha-representative who imported it from Yamaha in Germany. My friends who are experts at motorbikes noticed quite early since the day I’ve bought it that smoke of white color was coming off the exhaust. That’s why we closely inspected the motorcycle.
To my surprise, i found out that the final reduction had been changed from 17/39 to 16/42. I have to add that there’s been a check on the oil consumption which showed that for every 2000 km the TRX consumes more than 1 lt of oil.
The Greek importer, whom I talked to, told me that he would contact Yamaha in Germany to ask for clarifications on this issue. The answer from Yamaha in Germany is in the enclosed document.
Taking into consideration all the above, there are some questions that I want to address to you.
1) Is there a difference as far as the engine’ wear is concerned in relation to the change of the final reduction from 17/39 to 16/42 for any kind of motorbike and specifically for TRX?
2) Is it normal for TRX to consume more than 1 lt of oil for 2000 km (or per 1000 km as referred to by Yamaha in Germany)? What is the limit that Yamaha has set for oil consumption for this particular motorbike (TRX)?
3)Taking into consideration the importance that you give on Yamaha’s reliability as well as the information included in the Service-Manual which says that full oil change for TRX is done after 6000 km,I have the following question: is the completion of up to 1 lt per 1000 km as referred to from Yamaha in Germany normal? (that is 1,5 times the total amount of oil in the engine, which is 4,1 for 6000 km as mentioned in the Service-Manual. And according to Yamaha of Germany this is valid not only for TRX but also for all Yamaha motorbikes (R1,R6,XT,MT 01,YZ 450.MAJESTY 250 etc).


Yours faithfully,

[TRX124]

απάντηση απο ΥΜΕ

....................................................................................................
Dear Mr. Takis,

We have received your fax related to the oil consumption of your TRX850.

As I can understand from your letter, you have had some difficulties with the reply from YMG. I apologise for the feelings you have. I will do my best to answer your questions and hope you will understand the background a little better.

1. Engine wear related to the secondary reduction ratio:
Normally the final reduction ratio has nothing to do with the oil consumption. Only with the character of the unit. Some people want to change the secondary reduction ratio because they are driving a lot on the highway (then they change to a smaller ratio). Other people like to change the secondary reduction ratio because they drive most of the times in cities.
But basically, the oil consumption has nothing to do with engine wear.

2. Oil consumption:
Basically there is no official limit for oil consumption of the TRX850. Generally there is a limit for engines which mentions that revision is recommendable if the engine consumes more oil than 1 liter per 1000 kilometers. In your case this means that it is not yet necessary to revise the engine, but the engine does has been worn.
It's advisable to check the oil frequently. If the oil consumption increases, then it might be useful to check the engine.

3. Oil change interval:
I can understand your point of view regarding the total amount of oil in the engine and oil consumption. It is unfortunately a fact that the motorcycle engines don't contain a lot of oil compared to automotive engines.

I hope this letter explains and clarifies the situation. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you still have questions.

Best regards,

Yamaha Motor Europe N.V.
PTW Service & Testing


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[TRX124]

η απάντηση μου στην YAMAHA ευρώπης είναι:


.................................................................................................... .


Dear Mr. …
I would like to thank you for your prompt answer which I read with great attention and I would like to express my thoughts on this. Firstly, i don't expect that you apologize for the reply of YMG but I expect you to understand my feelings as Yamaha owner, fan and supporter of Yamaha Japanese mentality. The TRX was bought by YMG via an unauthorised Yamaha representative, since it was not possible to be found in Greece. The company guaranteed for its good condition for a 6 months period. The TRX had run 27000 km. Not only did the representative's mechanic confirm the consumption of 500+ ml per 1000 km but this was also obvious during driving since my friends noticed that white smoke was coming off the exhaust. Personally, I never had any contact with YMG. After the problem was detected by me and the representative, as mentioned before, we arranged an appointment with the representative's mechanic to open the engine so that to specify what the problem really was. The appointment was for the morning of July 11th 2005. When I arrived at the garage I was given the document from YMG (issued after the contact that the Greek representative had with YMG). As a result of this, the checking (the opening of the TRX engine) was cancelled. Now you can understand why I addressed myself to Yamaha in Europe.
I would also like to inform you (correct me if I'm wrong ) that, as a technician engineer of the National Technical University of Athens-Department of Mechanical Engineering , the white smoke from the exhaust that is related to oil consumption (that is , its burning in the combustion chamber) may be attributed :
1) the piston oil ring is worn. The ring (or the block of the
engine) may be damaged causing oil from the crankcase to
be pulled past the piston into the combustion chamber.
2) cylinders worn
3) valve oil seal damaged
4) head gasket broken between oil return and cylinder
At least these are the reasons of oil consumption that I know. At this point, I'd like to ask you officially as a service engineer of Yamaha in Europe (thus for Greece and Germany as well) if this oil consumption eliminates these problems. As far as I can understand from what you say is that the motorbike will have a



problem in the near future (if not already, which I doubt) due to its malfunction since the engine is showing signs of wear. *e-mail: but the engine does has been worn" .
Taking all these into consideration, the question that arises is the following: taking for granted that the engine is showing signs of wear, shouldn't be opened and repaired? Don't forget that there is a 6 months guarantee, in which period the problem came up, What action shall both sides take so that the TRX will run not in bad condition but according to the standards that Yamaha in Japan has set?
Yours faithfully

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[TRX124]

συνέχεια διαλόγου με YAMAHA ευρώπης

........................................................................................


Dear Mr. Takis

Please don't get me wrong, I do understand you as a Yamaha owner. Myself I own an old FZR600R which is getting older and I can expect some engine wear in the near future as well... I completely understand your situation. Unfortunately YME is not able to help you in this case.

I understand that your situation is a little different and complicated because of the involvement of the company who imported the TRX850 by themselves.

The only thing I can inform you which might help you is this:
Generally speaking, the importer is responsible for the warranty. So in your case you should be able to rely on the company who sold you the unit. They should rely on the company who imported the unit (that's the same company as far as I can see).

For me it is clear that you should rely on the company where you bought the unit from. You mentioned in your letter: "The company guaranteed for its good condition for a 6 months period".

The oil consumption of 1 liter per 1000 kilometer is a general warning where you are sure there is something wrong. In your case, I'm almost positive that some engine parts are out of "Yamaha specifications" ( e.g. one of the parts you mentioned in your letter: piston ring, cylinder, piston etc.). So in that point of view, you should be able to convince the company where you bought the unit from, that one of the parts is not in "good" condition and most likely even out of specifications.

Hope this helps.

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[TRX124]

.................................................................................................... ...

Dear Mr …


Thank you again for your immediate response to my problem. Which is not related to YAMAHA. My problem is the fact that some people are trying to get round of there responsibilities by using the name of YAMAHA (YMG document). I don‘t aspect and I don‘t want YAMAHA generally to pay for the damages of the engine. But I want the people who are involved with the TRX’s affair, finally to take theirs responsibilities.
And there is the problem of the Yamaha specifications concerning the oil consumption of the TRX. If a motorcyclist brings you, to the YAMAHA EUROPE’s garage a trx which consume 500+ ml of oil for every 1000 km, what are you doing? Speaking exclusively from the mechanical point of view. Are you going to open the engine, even only to inspect the internal parts to see if there is something wrong, or you will send him back home by saying everything is OK?( which I don’t think is my case)
So that’s the reason why I’m disturbing you. I would like to thank you again for your time and to ask you to send me the address and the e-mail address of the YAMAHA company to IWATA in JAPAN in order to communicate all my demands in which I can’t find a clear and accurate response. Thank you again,



Best regards,


...............................................................................................

[TRX124]

ΥΜΕ:


Dear Mr. Panagiotis,

Thank you for your understanding.

However, I don't see why you need to contact YMC. They will not be able to provide you with more inform then I already provided you. For me it's clear that you should negotiate this issue with the company where you bought the unit from.
There is no use t contact YMC directly.

Thanks again for your understanding.

Best regards,

Yamaha Motor Europe N.V.
PTW Service & Testing

[TRX124]

εγώ:


Dear Mr …


It is really a matter of YAMAHA because is the YMG who sold the TRX to the greek dealer,and it's the YMG that gave the warranty for the bike to him(and he transfer it to me) and it's YMG's the document that declare things that are far away from the truth of a practising ingeneer mechanical.That's the reason why i want to make the same questions to the YAMAHA-JAPAN.Is normal a consumption of 1 lt for 1000km as the YMG(employee of YAMAHA-JAPAN) declares?Must my TRX's engine with the problems that i have (and the mechanical of the greek dealer has)notice ,be opened and repaired?If i am still using the bike under these conditions, am i sure there isn't bigger problems in the future?Questions that nobody in europe can answer me(neither the YME,YMG or the yamaha of greece that i asked for)So only the mother company can resolve this question and i am sure you are not contrary on this.Are you?So i aspect the adresses.



Yours faithfully,

[TRX124]

ΥΜΕ:




Dear Mr. takis,

I will contact my Japanese colleague and I will do the best I can. Most probably they will also say that an oil consumption of 0,5 liter per 1000 kilometers is not a trigger to disassemble the complete engine.

I will also contact our Greek importer in order to see if he can help.
But please understand that it's very difficult for us on a distance to determine what the technical state of the TRX850 really is. We can't just make conclusions from a distance.

I will keep you informed.

Best regards,

Yamaha Motor Europe N.V.
PTW Service & Testing

[TRX124]

μετά απο λίγο καιρό...


ΥΜΕ:


Dear …,

Thank you for your patience.

According to YMC, an oil consumption of 1 liter per 1000 kilometer is the general indication for motorcycles. So that was the same as informed by me some time ago. So there is a possibility that there is no big problem with your TRX850. Besides that, a 2 cylinder consumes a little more oil compared to 4 cylinder engines. On a distance we can guess what it all could be, but please understand that it's very difficult for us to determine what the technical state of the TRX850 really is.
Therefore an official Yamaha dealer should measure the actual oil consumption. According our importer Motodynamics, they have already proposed this to you. But according to my colleague, you told him that this was not necessary, because you already did. So our importer did offer you to help and referred you to an official Yamaha dealer.

Best regards,

Yamaha Motor Europe N.V.
PTW Service & Testing

[TRX124]

εγώ:



Dear …


Thank you again for your response. I understand that you had a communication with YAMAHA-JAPAN (YMC) and this is an official response (not any more only from YMG) that 1 lt of oil consumption is to be considered normal for the Yamaha motorcycles (for the 2 cylinder engines). Am I right?
As regards the Motodynamics the facts are different. When I talk with them and I told them about the TRX consumption they asked me who made the measurement of the oil consumption. I told them that the mechanic of the Greek importer did that and the whole issue ended there. Nobody from the Motodynamics proposed me a measurement of the oil consumption. If that had happen I wouldn’t have disturb you. Anyway, I see a will of Motodynamics to help, so I would like to know the name of the sir that you have speak with, in order to communicate with him and find a solution.




Best regards

[TRX124]

εγώ:





Dear …


In succession of your last email about the availability of Motodynamics (official importer of Yamaha for Greece) to help for the accurate measurement of oil consumption of TRX 850 according the Yamaha specifications, I would like to inform you that I did so. The results of this measurement are registered in the document included with this email.
Cause the results of this measurement (950 ml for 1019 km) I would like to ask you if now this consumption is to be considered normal according the specifications of YME(so according the specifications of Yamaha of Japan which sets them) or the engine is to be considered damaged and needs to be controlled, be opened to see why there is such a big consumption and be revised? Or the YME (and the Yamaha of Japan also) still accepts the YMG document even in this case?
I am waiting for your acts in order to resolve this problem (which I think, after the Motodynamics measurement, really exist)






Yours faithfully

[TRX124]

έγγραφο Μοτοδυναμικής:




MOTODYNAMICS S.A.

YAMAHA

Athens, 19 October 2005
We hereby certify that after checking the engine oil level of your TRX 850 with frame number 014112 we found out that the oil quantity had been reduced by 950 ml within a traveling distance of 1019 km. Particularly, we put 3,9 It at 35117 km and we extracted 2,95 It at 36136 Km in order to measure the exact quality missing.
For MOTODYNAMICS S.A.

[TRX124]

ΥΜΕ:





Dear …,

We as Yamaha have informed you with sufficient information. So far, this is all we can do for you.
You can contact and negotiate with the dealer you bought the unit from.

You can also contact the official Yamaha dealer who measured the oil consumption. This dealer is able to service the unit with Yamaha quality and standards. However, you have to understand that there is no warranty applied to this unit as it's older than two years.

I trust we have informed you sufficiently.
Thanks for your understanding.

Best regards,
Yamaha Motor Europe N.V.
PTW Service & Testing